| Date: 10 Jul 2009 09:29 |
| Name: John Brooks |
Comment:
And where is all the research that demonstrates that Government domestic energy efficiency policy to-date has actually delivered real savings? Once again, answers on a postcard!!!
The reality is that condensing boilers, mandated several years ago, mostly DON'T deliver maximum efficiency, mainly because the controls needed are not there, or because the SYSTEM was designed originally for high temperature operation (undersized radiators, inadequate insulation, on-off controls, ...) and was never modified when the boiler was upgraded to a high-efficiency, condensing type.
You can't entirely blame the installer for this. UK training, especially in controls and efficiency concepts, is A JOKE.
And you can't rely on large organisations such as British Gas and EAGA (Warmfront 'proprietors') to 'Get it Right', when they allege that smaller installers will get it wrong! The reality here is that they are chasing a Fast Buck, same as many others, and still DO cut corners and fail to focus on system efficiency.
And PLEASE don't get me started on larger, shared systems and commercial heating! Efficiency? Hardly ever found! |
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| Date: 09 Jul 2009 22:30 |
| Name: Peter Greenbank |
Comment:
http://www.efficiency-from-germany.info/EIE/Navigation/EN/Technologies/examples,did=257406.html
This is where the real work is being done, not shower of ... |
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| Date: 09 Jul 2009 18:49 |
| Name: Peter Greenbank |
Comment:
I suspect that many of the people in positions of power have no real depth of understanding when it comes to proper heating technology/design, let alone complex renewable technologies. For them to dictate the path for all to follow is laughable.
I wonder how the likes of EST get so much power when it is obvious they seek advice from manufacturers and big business, they should declare to UK installers the source of their research and let us judge their competence to navigate the installation community towards 2020.
EST, Carbon Trust and BRE come out with some curious comments when it comes to discussions about modulation controls, I wonder what their motivation is in holding back energy efficiency by ignoring the value of controls that have a dialogue with the boiler BMU and keep condensing boilers in condensing mode for longer, saying that turning down an on/off stat by 1 degree is so old and worthless that it has no value on a modern low temperature boiler that all you will do is create higher demand when the thermal mass of the dwelling has to raised by that lost 1 degree and then the classic on/off overshoot, get real guys.
For inspiration have a look here www.bdh-koeln.de click on the English version and see how the Germans and Dutch come together and give away high quality information for free, we should all hang our British heads in shame. pity the Kompendium is not in English.
P.S. We are ready for modulation controls they prepare us for renewable intelligence and thoughtful system design.
Give us back our trade (remove the parasites) and we will design the systems fit for 2020 now, it is possible and available, stop dumbing down UK installers and the products they install.
I suspect that big business (energy companies) see renewable's as a chance to drive the final stake in the heart of the down trodden UK independant installer, we have always been a thorn in their side. |
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| Date: 08 Jul 2009 22:37 |
| Name: Peter |
Comment:
how can installers be expected to push boundaries if the Government themselves are not really on the case, sort of stuck with their 'old school boys' network in the plumbing/heating industry and half understanding what's happening on the continent where they are miles ahead... |
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| Date: 08 Jul 2009 20:25 |
| Name: Peter Greenbank |
Comment:
Heating engineers accross the UK have been cut out of the information/learning loop, how many independent installers are invited to give their point of view on any of the many forums on energy efficency?
The UK installer has been served very badly by training providers, the systematic dumbing down (firstly by boiler manufacturers hiding features on products from Europe in order to satisfy the thirst for connection to enrgy wasting "On/Off" controls) and the lack of "System Thinking" from the training providers, how many UK installers can design a system from end to end and ensure a Low temperature boiler is in condensing mode most of the time "Modulation controls" are the answer and the platform to use, for a holistic approach to system design, hydronic Balancing, heat loss calculations, pipe sizing and setting boiler heat loads and lowering flow temperatures on the boiler software to ensure low return temps is not considered by UK installers.
Modulation/Weather Compensated Control, force installers to think about everthing that matters in relation to energy efficiency, to set Weather Compensation up properly, installers need to consider the thermal envelope of the dwelling, understand good hydraulic design and look at the software on the boiler.
The biggest single mistake made by manufacturers was to call our new generation boilers "Condensing Boilers" they do not automatically condense when taken out of the box and hung on the wall (although may accidently from time to time), I find hundreds of installations where boilers have been left with on maximum heat load (say 19kw) and the system only needs 9kw's combine this with a 70 degree flow temp and on/off controls and you have classic overshoot and wasting of precious gas.
Opentherm (point to point communication) boilers and controls go some way to breaking the nations love affair with old fashioned on/off controls and offer installers real hope in learning the only way to modulate a condensing boiler.
German and Dutch boilers are designed to be coupled with a "Designed system" not dumped onto an old high temperature system with no load adjustment and expected to condense, the UK consumer has been badly let down many Band A boilers promises, due to being poorly installed with little chance of being in condensing mode.
The UK training industry needs to take a long hard look at the mess they have created, UK heating engineers are good enough "Ecotechnicians" have proved this by going directly to Europe and working hand in hand with their UK subsideries, to show how the rapid adoption of new technology is possible, our heating engineers are starving for high qaulity information that will not cost the earth and sharing information hand to hand.
Scrap the ACS fiasco for the better proven installers and let them spend their valuable time self learning renewable technologies using a group such as Ecotechnicians.
Why has the Energy Savings Trust recently dismissed Weather compensation, is it because they do not understand the technology? Poor form.
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| Date: 07 Jul 2009 21:08 |
| Name: Simon Reddy |
Comment:
This is a very interesting article, especially the last paragraph. In recent times, the free market deregulated approach of the vocational sectors, has allowed tens of thousands of people to enter the building services industry with dubious or no qualifications what so ever; its going to be difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Many current installers are pushed to wire controls to a combination boiler, never mind upgrade an existing system with fully modulating weather compensation. I experienced installer attitude to this last week, on a German Boiler training course - one installer stated 'if we cannot plug and play, we are not interested!'
Most of these controls have already been dumbed down for the UK market anyway. From my own position, we just do not have the skills en mass to do it.
The answer is not more training either, as this usually takes place in a classroom and consists of assessment not learning. These are the sad truths of our sector, which are the consequence of free market deregulation. Furthermore, until we can start electing the people we want to run our sectors, who know something about controlling quality and education, this ridiculous situation will continue.
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Simon Duddy - Editor of H&V News
